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	<title>Comments on: Ambiguities of Animal Rights</title>
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	<link>http://www.social-ecology.org/2005/01/ambiguities-of-animal-rights/</link>
	<description>Popular Education for a Free Society</description>
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		<title>By: Peter Staudenmaier</title>
		<link>http://www.social-ecology.org/2005/01/ambiguities-of-animal-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-5925</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Staudenmaier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2011 01:36:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://72.47.250.174/?p=525#comment-5925</guid>
		<description>Hi Kurt and Edson,

Thanks for your comments. I disagree with Kurt that the ethical position outlined in the article is couched within an anthropocentric logic. It seems to me this indicates a basic misunderstanding of anthropocentrism. It is certainly true that broadening the application of compassion in general would be a fine thing. A major part of my argument in the article is that animal rights and animal liberation do not broaden the scope of ethical compassion, but significantly narrow it. By limiting substantive moral standing to sentient creatures (not, by the way, moral agency, another basic misunderstanding in the comments above), animal rights and animal liberation undermine and impede a comprehensive ecological ethics. 

These are the sorts of philosophical questions that animal rights enthusiasts would do well to grapple with. If Kurt or other readers find such claims far-fetched, they need simply read Edson’s remarks, which quite explicitly insist that the vast majority of living beings on earth merit “no ethical consideration” whatsoever, merely because they are not sentient. This is not some peculiar notion of Edson’s; it is a basic aspect of animal rights and animal liberation thinking in general. Those who seek a broad ecological ethic will find it difficult to reconcile that aspiration with the standard premises of animal rights. 

It sounds like my article upset Edson, and in a sense, that’s appropriate; the argument is meant to disturb some of common assumptions that are widespread within parts of the animal rights milieu. Many animal rights activists appear to share Edson’s beliefs about purity, for example, and seem equally unaware of the political heritage of such beliefs. This is a dangerous form of naïvete. For those who would like to inform themselves about these questions, here are some useful sources:

Heléne Lööw, “The Idea of Purity: The Swedish Racist Counterculture, Animal Rights, and Environmental Protection” in Jeffrey Kaplan and Heléne Lööw, eds., The Cultic Milieu: Oppositional Subcultures in an Age of Globalization (Rowman &amp; Littlefield, 2002), 193-210

Chaia Heller, “Rescuing Lady Nature: Ecology and the Cult of the Romantic” in Heller, Ecology of Everyday Life (Montreal: Black Rose, 1999), 13-38

Noel Sturgeon, Environmentalism in Popular Culture: Gender, Race, Sexuality, and the Politics of the Natural (University of Arizona Press, 2009)

Douglas Weiner, “Demythologizing Environmentalism” Journal of the History of Biology 25 (1992), 385-411


Peter Staudenmaier</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Kurt and Edson,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments. I disagree with Kurt that the ethical position outlined in the article is couched within an anthropocentric logic. It seems to me this indicates a basic misunderstanding of anthropocentrism. It is certainly true that broadening the application of compassion in general would be a fine thing. A major part of my argument in the article is that animal rights and animal liberation do not broaden the scope of ethical compassion, but significantly narrow it. By limiting substantive moral standing to sentient creatures (not, by the way, moral agency, another basic misunderstanding in the comments above), animal rights and animal liberation undermine and impede a comprehensive ecological ethics. </p>
<p>These are the sorts of philosophical questions that animal rights enthusiasts would do well to grapple with. If Kurt or other readers find such claims far-fetched, they need simply read Edson’s remarks, which quite explicitly insist that the vast majority of living beings on earth merit “no ethical consideration” whatsoever, merely because they are not sentient. This is not some peculiar notion of Edson’s; it is a basic aspect of animal rights and animal liberation thinking in general. Those who seek a broad ecological ethic will find it difficult to reconcile that aspiration with the standard premises of animal rights. </p>
<p>It sounds like my article upset Edson, and in a sense, that’s appropriate; the argument is meant to disturb some of common assumptions that are widespread within parts of the animal rights milieu. Many animal rights activists appear to share Edson’s beliefs about purity, for example, and seem equally unaware of the political heritage of such beliefs. This is a dangerous form of naïvete. For those who would like to inform themselves about these questions, here are some useful sources:</p>
<p>Heléne Lööw, “The Idea of Purity: The Swedish Racist Counterculture, Animal Rights, and Environmental Protection” in Jeffrey Kaplan and Heléne Lööw, eds., The Cultic Milieu: Oppositional Subcultures in an Age of Globalization (Rowman &amp; Littlefield, 2002), 193-210</p>
<p>Chaia Heller, “Rescuing Lady Nature: Ecology and the Cult of the Romantic” in Heller, Ecology of Everyday Life (Montreal: Black Rose, 1999), 13-38</p>
<p>Noel Sturgeon, Environmentalism in Popular Culture: Gender, Race, Sexuality, and the Politics of the Natural (University of Arizona Press, 2009)</p>
<p>Douglas Weiner, “Demythologizing Environmentalism” Journal of the History of Biology 25 (1992), 385-411</p>
<p>Peter Staudenmaier</p>
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		<title>By: Edson Ricardo Junior</title>
		<link>http://www.social-ecology.org/2005/01/ambiguities-of-animal-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-5525</link>
		<dc:creator>Edson Ricardo Junior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jul 2011 04:06:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://72.47.250.174/?p=525#comment-5525</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a great surprise for me to encounter with such a great amount of misleading thought. I&#039;m myself an animal liberation advocate and as well as an anarchist. As much as I would love to, I lack the eternal patient that would require me to counterpoint every aspect of this extreme long text.

Anyway, the whole point of the Animal Liberation is, YES, considering them as moral subjects! Not as moral agents as would you wrongly put in (this single fact throws quite a light into several arguments that you&#039;ve used).
Through readings such as Peter Singer, and specially Tom Regan (or just by logical thinking) you can achieve the point of seeing that sentient beings must be treated as individual with an independent value, a value per se. That is the reason why we don&#039;t, morally, consider it right to harm other humans. So, if the same is sustainable for animals, we have such an obligation to them as well.

Now, HOW THE FUCKING HELL, can you assume that this can mislead people toward fascism? This is how I got pretty amazed.

Anarchists, above all, should know the importance of individuality. What you do, is denying this for Billions of animals who daily suffer in the hands of humans. Just because the Animal Rights movement has grown in a western and middle-class context it doesn&#039;t mean that its logic is wrong. You seemed more  preoccupied into clarifying how Nazi&#039;s were pro animal rights activists than really discussing the whole aspect of the Animals Rights theory.

Well, in relation to the environmental views of the animal rights theory, its pretty obvious:
1 - If a plant, for instance, isn&#039;t a moral subject, there is no ethical consideration towards it.
2 - The role MORAL ASPECT of environmental consideration is just justified in the extent as it affects MORAL SUBJECTS! OR, in other words, INDIVIDUALS. It makes no sense to speak about the effects that a global warming would have into non-sentient beings. Non-sentient beings doesn&#039;t give a shit about a thing.

And, for last: Yes, the animal liberation requires humans that live from animal exploitation (in any kind of level) to change their attitudes. Just because any of kind of native people live from animal exploitation for centuries it doesn&#039;t make it right morally. They&#039;re not ethically excused. Would you think the same, for instance, if a native culture considers necessary to enslave or to kill without any kind of rational excuse others humans? If the answer is NO, then why? Wouldn&#039;t it be a fruit of your culture, and you&#039;re trying to force it to them? Of course not. In order to defend plurality would you still keep on defending the status quo of Hindu people and its social system? I guess not.

When you say that the animal liberation movement is seeking purity, I don&#039;t see it as a negative view. You&#039;re just distorting it for the sake of your misleading argument. Of course we want moral improvement, as I understand purity, as everyone that is in involved with liberation of all kind want. We want a better society, we want better conditions to every single individual, we want freedom, freedom from religion thought, freedom from fascism views, freedom from sexism, freedom from racism, freedom from specism, freedom from oppressive moral, or, in other words: a world without masters (of any kind!). If you accuse the Animal Liberation movement from seeking this kind of purity, than we&#039;re fully blamed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a great surprise for me to encounter with such a great amount of misleading thought. I&#8217;m myself an animal liberation advocate and as well as an anarchist. As much as I would love to, I lack the eternal patient that would require me to counterpoint every aspect of this extreme long text.</p>
<p>Anyway, the whole point of the Animal Liberation is, YES, considering them as moral subjects! Not as moral agents as would you wrongly put in (this single fact throws quite a light into several arguments that you&#8217;ve used).<br />
Through readings such as Peter Singer, and specially Tom Regan (or just by logical thinking) you can achieve the point of seeing that sentient beings must be treated as individual with an independent value, a value per se. That is the reason why we don&#8217;t, morally, consider it right to harm other humans. So, if the same is sustainable for animals, we have such an obligation to them as well.</p>
<p>Now, HOW THE FUCKING HELL, can you assume that this can mislead people toward fascism? This is how I got pretty amazed.</p>
<p>Anarchists, above all, should know the importance of individuality. What you do, is denying this for Billions of animals who daily suffer in the hands of humans. Just because the Animal Rights movement has grown in a western and middle-class context it doesn&#8217;t mean that its logic is wrong. You seemed more  preoccupied into clarifying how Nazi&#8217;s were pro animal rights activists than really discussing the whole aspect of the Animals Rights theory.</p>
<p>Well, in relation to the environmental views of the animal rights theory, its pretty obvious:<br />
1 &#8211; If a plant, for instance, isn&#8217;t a moral subject, there is no ethical consideration towards it.<br />
2 &#8211; The role MORAL ASPECT of environmental consideration is just justified in the extent as it affects MORAL SUBJECTS! OR, in other words, INDIVIDUALS. It makes no sense to speak about the effects that a global warming would have into non-sentient beings. Non-sentient beings doesn&#8217;t give a shit about a thing.</p>
<p>And, for last: Yes, the animal liberation requires humans that live from animal exploitation (in any kind of level) to change their attitudes. Just because any of kind of native people live from animal exploitation for centuries it doesn&#8217;t make it right morally. They&#8217;re not ethically excused. Would you think the same, for instance, if a native culture considers necessary to enslave or to kill without any kind of rational excuse others humans? If the answer is NO, then why? Wouldn&#8217;t it be a fruit of your culture, and you&#8217;re trying to force it to them? Of course not. In order to defend plurality would you still keep on defending the status quo of Hindu people and its social system? I guess not.</p>
<p>When you say that the animal liberation movement is seeking purity, I don&#8217;t see it as a negative view. You&#8217;re just distorting it for the sake of your misleading argument. Of course we want moral improvement, as I understand purity, as everyone that is in involved with liberation of all kind want. We want a better society, we want better conditions to every single individual, we want freedom, freedom from religion thought, freedom from fascism views, freedom from sexism, freedom from racism, freedom from specism, freedom from oppressive moral, or, in other words: a world without masters (of any kind!). If you accuse the Animal Liberation movement from seeking this kind of purity, than we&#8217;re fully blamed.</p>
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		<title>By: Kurt Fletch</title>
		<link>http://www.social-ecology.org/2005/01/ambiguities-of-animal-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-4714</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt Fletch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2011 16:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://72.47.250.174/?p=525#comment-4714</guid>
		<description>Interesting article. However, I hope to see a more up to date take on speciesism from the Institute. The arguments used here to undermined anti-speciesist stances, is in itself couched within an anthropocentric ethical logic. Moreover, doesn&#039;t Bookchin&#039;s &quot;second human nature&quot; imply the broadening of application of compassion in general?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting article. However, I hope to see a more up to date take on speciesism from the Institute. The arguments used here to undermined anti-speciesist stances, is in itself couched within an anthropocentric ethical logic. Moreover, doesn&#8217;t Bookchin&#8217;s &#8220;second human nature&#8221; imply the broadening of application of compassion in general?</p>
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